More Trash From Hollywood

AAhhh, the wonderful world of fiction that is Hollyweird. It seems that since the DaVinci Code didn’t persuade us that Jesus is dead, those ‘brilliant’ (not) Hollywood people have decided to try and convince everyone that they have found Jesus’ coffin. This is a funny thing, since Jesus was not buried in a coffin. It really doesnt add up, but I am sure that they will try once again to convince people that 2 + 2 = 12. My question is this: How would one go about proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that the coffins found are those of Jesus Christ and His family?

Stay tuned, there will be much more on this ridiculous story in the coming week.

Side Note: This trash talk is coming from the same man that created the movie Titanic. In other words, the man who made millions off the line “I am king of the world” is going to snuff out Christianity? Not likely. It is really quite laughable when you think about it. Arrogant. Very arrogant.

Brace yourself. James Cameron, the man who brought you ‘The Titanic’ is back with another blockbuster. This time, the ship he’s sinking is Christianity.

In a new documentary, Producer Cameron and his director, Simcha Jacobovici, make the starting claim that Jesus wasn’t resurrected –the cornerstone of Christian faith– and that his burial cave was discovered near Jerusalem. And, get this, Jesus sired a son with Mary Magdelene.

No, it’s not a re-make of “The Da Vinci Codes’. It’s supposed to be true.

Let’s go back 27 years, when Israeli construction workers were gouging out the foundations for a new building in the industrial park in the Talpiyot, a Jerusalem suburb. of Jerusalem. The earth gave way, revealing a 2,000 year old cave with 10 stone caskets. Archologists were summoned, and the stone caskets carted away for examination. It took 20 years for experts to decipher the names on the ten tombs. They were: Jesua, son of Joseph, Mary, Mary, Mathew, Jofa and Judah, son of Jesua.
Israel’s prominent archeologist Professor Amos Kloner didn’t associate the crypt with the New Testament Jesus. His father, after all, was a humble carpenter who couldn’t afford a luxury crypt for his family. And all were common Jewish names.

There was also this little inconvenience that a few miles away, in the old city of Jerusalem, Christians for centuries had been worshipping the empty tomb of Christ at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Christ’s resurrection, after all, is the main foundation of the faith, proof that a boy born to a carpenter’s wife in a manger is the Son of God.

But film-makers Cameron and Jacobovici claim to have amassed evidence through DNA tests, archeological evidence and Biblical studies, that the 10 coffins belong to Jesus and his family.

Ever the showman, (Why does this remind me of the impresario in another movie,”King Kong”, whose hubris blinds him to the dangers of an angry and very large ape?) Cameron is holding a New York press conference on Monday at which he will reveal three coffins, supposedly those of Jesus of Nazareth, his mother Mary and Mary Magdalene. News about the film, which will be shown soon on Discovery Channel, Britain’s Channel 4, Canada’s Vision, and Israel’s Channel 8, has been a hot blog topic in the Middle East (check out a personal favorite: Israelity Bites) Here in the Holy Land, Biblical Archeology is a dangerous profession. This 90-minute documentary is bound to outrage Christians and stir up a titanic debate between believers and skeptics. Stay tuned.

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42 Responses to “More Trash From Hollywood”

  1. Tom says:

    How do you know that Jesus wasnt buried in a coffin? you have as much prove as James. less infact!

  2. Steve says:

    Sigh….
    Actually, I have quite a bit more evidence than Jimmy does. I have the account shown in the Bible, which is the eyewitness account of many people. From your comment, I can pretty well tell that you don’t believe in the Bible. Your loss.
    You might want to read my article The Bible – Is It True?
    You might want to read this one too The Burial of Jesus

  3. Beth says:

    Well, Tom, I am glad you asked! Read John 19:40-42 in the Bible and I think you will see exactly how I know Jesus wasnt buried in a coffin. You see, James Cameron has a lot riding on this hoax – millions in fact. It is quite convenient that this is coming out a year after the DaVinci nonsense made mega bucks at the box office. You see, my friend, the almighty dollar is what is fueling James Camerons quest for Jesus.

    I read a quote by a man named GK Chesterson – he said “I refuse to take direction on God and happiness from people who have neither.” I think this is Great advice, Tom, great advice. If you are interested in truly learning what the Bible says about Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection – you came to the right place.

  4. Tom says:

    Steve, just because it is written in the scripture, doesnt make it ‘gospel’. I could write a book about my mate being the Messiah, and have people find that and start a religion. back then, in the time of the naive, it is quite possible that people saw stuff they didnt understand, wrote ite down/blagged a little, and hey presto, here were are 2000 thousand years later, believing everything that is written. Confusing this is, some christians believe one thing, and another set believe something else. now straight away, one set is wrong, meaning that their faith is wrong. Then you have Islam, Muslims feel that the have a case set in stone for what they believe in, now between Christians and Muslims, again, one of them is is very very wrong, is it you, is it them? who knows. All i know is over time, your story has become twisted and changed by so many people to suits their own ideals and situations. Henry the 8th create a branch himself, just so that he can get divorced. No one ‘knows’ what happened 2000 years ago, and i’m not saying James’ claim is correct, but you have no fundimental prove that he is wrong, just because people 2000 years ago, wrote something in a book.

    Now if the bible is spot on and Jesus did raise from the dead, as claimed, then where is his body? its said that disbelievers touched his body, felt the holes in his hands, and then he rose in to the sky; and sat at the right hand side of his father etc. Then that must mean that heaven is a physical place, meaning anyone can go there, let alone the fact his body must be a little bit wrinkley by now.

    I’m not posting this to be offensive. I just feel that people can be very myopic.

  5. Tom says:

    another querie i thought i’d throw ‘out there’…

    Just who was writting the bible?

    For example, Moses and the burning bush… Just Moses and a bush. No one else was there. So all we have is Moses’ version of events. sorry if I seem sceptical, but dont get me started on who witnessed Adam and Eve and jotted all that nonsense down; so that people can quote bible references in an debate.

  6. Steve says:

    Wow, talk about myopic, Tom, look in the mirror.
    The very nature of God, you know, the creator of the universe, is to be able to control all aspects of His creation. Do you actually believe that it would be any problem for the being who knows how the atoms stay together to manipulate a physical body? C’mom, you’re smarter than that. Does He currently exist in a physical form or is He right at this instant in only a spiritual form? The point is, it doesn’t matter a hill of beans to someone who is actively seeking to understand His nature and His message.
    If you read my article on the validity of the Bible, then you should have come to realize that it has as much, if not more credibility than documents that we use to “prove” the early history of the world. It meets or exceeds these documents in every area. The problem you secularist have in accepting them as true is that they deal with things you don’t understand and can’t duplicate today. That does not make them any less credible. If the type and amount of documentation the Bible contains was used in a court of law today, any case would be won by it.
    It is more than just a book. Jack Kensilla wrote an article that I blogged about last week concerning the accuracy of the Bible, particularly the book of Job. In Job, the Bible claims several scientific truths that no one of that age could have know, most certainly not from casual observation. As a matter of fact, some of them were not know until scientific instrumentation was invented. So how did someone living 2000 before the birth of Christ know this information, if it was not shared with him from some source who already knew? The point is, it’s not possible.
    Let me make two more points:
    The odds of the necessary amino acids coming together in the correct sequence to form a “simple cell” are akin to blowing up a print shop and as the type rained down from the sky, it landed in the exact order to create the complete unabridged dictionary. I others words, it is virtually impossible. Now take the fact that we are not made up of simple cells, but of complex ones, and the fact that we are not single celled organisms, but made up of complex series of millions of cells and the odds of this happening by accident are so astronomical that it is completely impossible.
    My second point is, much as I’m sorry to say it, people are inherently bad. We have to teach our children to be good, but they don’t seem to have any problem knowing how to be bad. The “Christians” that you sited above are not necessarily following God’s will as told to us by the Bible.
    People will do bad things all the time. No matter how hard we try, all of us will do bad things. The Bible tells us that “all have fallen short of the glory of God”. That means you, me, Beth, everyone. But God tells us that through our faith in Jesus, we can have all our bad things accounted for and when we stand before God in judgment, Jesus will have already paid for all the bad things we have done. We are assured an eternity with God. Those who have rejected God’s free gift in Jesus will spend the rest of eternity in hell. Sorry to preach hell and damnation, but that is what the Bible says will happen to people who reject Jesus. But with that said, I want to tell you straight that the Bible is a book of hope and love. Yes, there are consequences to our actions in the spiritual just as there are in the physical, but the Bible teaches hope and love through Jesus Christ. Jesus said that He came not judge the world but to save it. That is what He does when one opens their heart to Him and really tries to understand what He is saying them. Won’t you give it a try?
    Thanks for your comment. We’ll be praying for you.
    Please take a moment to read this: Salvation Through Jesus.

  7. Steve says:

    Hi Tom,
    Looks like you posted another comment while I was responding to your first one. Almost like instant messaging.
    So following your logic, that means that unless two or more people present evidence exactly the same, their testimony is worthless.
    Wow, in one fell swoop, you have overturned virtually every court decision every made over the entire history of mankind. Congratulations!! That’s quite a feat. I wonder what earth changing events you are going to do this evening!! OK, I’m teasing you a bit there…no offense intended.
    But really Tom, I’ve sited several time now that the Bible meets or exceeds, in every way, the requirements for valid testimony, as laid out by secular courts today. To say that it doesn’t have validity is to ignore the obvious.
    The Bible was written down by several different people, but has a common mode. In other words, if many different people wrote the Bible, it would contain just as many writing styles and themes. But the Bible doesn’t. It is congruent in a way that could only be true if they shared the same author. The author of the Bible is God. The people who wrote it down could be thought of as simple “scribes” for God.
    Take a moment to read this post about another article by Jack Kinsella.
    You might want to read this too: Who Wrote the Bible?

  8. Tom says:

    All I’m saying in the first post steve, is that with all the different religions, and different versions of Christianity, how do you know your following the right one? I know it all comes down to faith, but there is no way can say for absolute certain that you are corect.

    For example… how do you feel about women in general? not being funny, i’m going somewhere with this…

  9. Tom says:

    reason I ask is because of quotes like this… “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety” (1 Timothy 2:11-15)” now, there are plenty more but was using this as an example.

    now if you agree with this, the you should be saying, “BETH, SHUT UP. KNOW YOUR ROLE!!!”

    if you don’t agree with this view that men are better than women, than may I be as bold as to say that you are altering your views to suit yourself? and may i also say that any quotes saying any different just prove the bible to be hypercritical

  10. Steve says:

    Tom,
    I appreciate your sincerity and civility. A rare commodity from commentators to our blog these days.
    I am a Baptist as far as the church I attend. I chose Baptist because that is the denomination that most closely follows my views.
    But before being a Baptist, I am a Bible believing Christian. I read the Bible and do what it says. All aspects of my life are compared to what the Bible teaches we should do and I then choose the direction that most closely follows what the Bible teaches.
    If tomorrow, the Baptist church we attend were to adopt a position that was not in line with what the Bible teaches then we would be finding a new fellowship to attend.
    So having prayed constantly and studied the Bible in depth, I am certain that I am correct in attempting to follow what is written in the Bible.
    As far as women are concerned; well, I co-blog with a lady named Beth. Although Missi and I own the website, Beth has equal authority to post anything she wants as long as it follows what is written in the Bible. In my mind she has equality with me to minister to anyone. On the converse, I would expect her to notify me if she found anything I wrote to be in direct conflict with what the Bible teaches.
    The Bible does teach that women should not typically enter into the top leadership role of a church. This tends to cause some consternation with people in today’s society because of the perceived inequality. It is noteworthy that there are many roles that women can take within a fellowship that are just as important if not more important then the person “in charge”.
    I invite you read the article “Women pastors / preachers? What does the Bible say about women in ministry?” from the GotQuestions website. It sums up my thoughts better than I can repeat them here.

  11. Tom says:

    I have grown up in a baptist family, attending a baptist church until I was 18, and admit that baptist are the most ‘normal’ of the christians, that I have come across, and I’m not rubbishing your views in anyway, but my question to you, is Jesus was a Jew, so if you believe in Jesus, and follow his teaching, why arent you Jewish, as that is ‘technically’, the correct religion. Jesus was king of the Jews, not king of the Baptists, mormon nor the catholics.

  12. Beth says:

    Tom, I too am a Baptist – Southern Baptist no less (**gasp**). What Steve is saying is correct. According to the Bible, women should not hold the top leadership positions in the church (ie. no women pastors, no women deacons/elders, no women teaching men’s classes). Women do; however, play an important role in the church. What you are missing is the fact that service to God is service to God whether you are the custodian or the pastor. God meets you where you are – the janitor’s service is just as important as the deacon’s service. Another thing that you are overlooking is that while women are not to “lead men” in the church – women are called to fulfill the Great Commission. God’s purpose for all people is that they glorify Him on eart. The Great Commission tells us to “go into all the world and preach the Gospel”. It doesnt say “Men, leave the women at home changing diapers and cooking meals, while you go and preach the Gospel”. If you study the Bible, you will see many women who were held in high regard by the men of the early church as well as God for their faithfulness (see Pheobe, Deborah, Mary).

    Society wants to make it as though Christianity makes slaves out of women. Quite the opposite, Jesus did more to advance the ’cause’ of women (if in fact there is such a cause) than any other person in history. Do you kow the story of the woman at the well? She was an adulteress. She had been married 5 times and the man she was living with was not her husband – adulteress to say the least. Jesus brought her sin out in the open – she would have normally been stoned to death for the crime of adultery, but he freed her when he told her to go and sin no more. Have you ever studied what Islam considers moral treatment of women?

    I realize that to someone who is not a believer and not a student of the Bible, it may seem degrading to women not to allow them to hold leadership above men in the church, but it is simply not the case. God placed the husband as head over the wife (for many reasons that would take forever to recount) and the wife is to submit to her husbands authority. Does that mean that my husband tells me every move to make? No, we are equal partners in life, but he is to love me as he loves himself and willingly lay down his life for me if necessary. It is a two way street. The submission part comes in when we are talking about final decision making. It is my job to support him, give him my opinion, and trust him as spiritual head of our household to make the best decision for our family – after all when we were married I became flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone – which is another way of saying that we are no longer 2 people, but we are one together – why would he do something to me that would harm himself? I dont want you to think that I meet my husband at the door with his slippers and serve him hand and foot – that is not submission – its slavery. Submission comes in being the help mate not the nagging whining know it all of the family.

    It is a concept that the world hates, but it is Biblical and while women struggle with submission many times, it is in our best interest to follow what God teaches in this area.

    Tom, I pray that the Holy Spirit will cause you to think about your own life and the fact that if you were to die today without accepting Jesus, you will go to eternal hell. All you have to do is admit that you are a sinner. (HAve you ever lied, cheated, looked on a woman with lust? Then you are a sinner) We all are sinners. Admit that to God and ask Him to save you from those sins. It would be the biggest and most important descision you will ever make.

    Beth

  13. Tom says:

    Beth, I look at women with lust every day 🙂 ‘God’ made them so pretty, its hard 🙂

  14. Steve says:

    Hi Tom,
    Excellent exchange of ideas here.
    Funny you should mention about Jesus being a Jew. Lo and Behold, I wrote an article about that very subject. You can read it here: “Jesus is a Jew”.
    The reason I am not Jewish is that I’m B’rit Chadashah in Hebrew, meaning “New Covenant”. Jesus is the New Covenant between us and God. He fulfilled the Old Covenant by dying on the cross for the remission of our sins.

  15. Tom says:

    faulty link…

    and no, not the link between you and God, the link about your article.

  16. Beth says:

    Hahahahaa. I get your joke. God did make women appealing to men and men appealing to women. That does not mean you are to look on women (that you are not married to) with lust. Have you ever told a lie? Of course you have – we all have. Have you ever cheated on a test? Probably. Have you ever taken the name of God in vain? Again, most likely you have. Have you ever looked on a woman with lust? You have already admitted to that one. That makes you a lying, cheating, adulterous blasphemer. I think you would have to agree that lying is wrong, cheating is wrong, and adultery is wrong.

    My point is that until one understands that they are a sinner, they dont see the need for God. We are all sinners, we all need God (the creator of everything including us) to forgive us of those sins so we can be in right relationship with Him here and in the hereafter. There are consequences to sin. The consequences for the unbeliever are death and hell.

    I dont even know you, Tom, but I know I dont want you to go to endless hell. Hell is real. Heaven is real. What person wouldnt choose a loving God and heaven over the devil and hell? It is a very simple choice for me, I would think it would be for you as well.

  17. Steve says:

    Sorry, my bad. The link is fixed now. You can also find this article and many more at our website at http://worshippingchristian.org

  18. Tom says:

    Beth, I’m only a youngster, and not married, so and am enjoying looking at the ladies, guilty free, and using my ‘God given looks’ whilst they last!

    What would you describe as hell? That big burning pit, as described in the bible? If so, I have a theory…. My soul wouldnt be physical matter, so no matte how hot it would be, it wouldnt hurt.

  19. Steve says:

    Tom,
    Keep in mind that Jesus had to use words that had meaning to the people He was preaching to. Hell is described as:
    “everlasting fire” (Matthew 25:41)
    “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12)
    “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2)
    a place where “their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49)
    a place of “torments” and “flame” (Luke 16:23,24)
    “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
    a place of torment with “fire and brimstone” where “the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10,11)
    a “lake of fire and brimstone” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
    Jesus Himself indicates that the punishment in hell itself is everlasting – not merely the smoke and flames (Matthew 25:46).

    Now remember that I said earlier in these comments that nothing is impossible for the creator of the universe?
    If God wants your soul to “feel” pain and suffering of internal fire, I assure you that you will “feel” it.

  20. Tom says:

    If god was indeed a loving and caring god, then why did he cause a catastrophic earthquake, resulting in a big wave that killed thousand of innocent people? Flexing his muscles?

  21. Steve says:

    Who said God caused it?
    The secular community is so fast to pin every disaster and problem on “God Caused It” and yet is so slow to accept God’s love or reject his existence outright. It can’t be both ways. Either one believes in God or one doesn’t.
    God is a just God. As such, He will not let sin into His presence. Period. But as a loving God, He has given each of us a way to have the sin removed. By believing in Jesus Christ, all sin is forgiven.
    God also gave us a freedom to choose for ourselves what we want to be in regards to Him. If we hear His Word (the Bible) and reject it, then we have made the choice and should have to live with the consequences.

  22. Tom says:

    “The very nature of God, you know, the creator of the universe, is to be able to control all aspects of His creation”… (as said by you earlier)

    Now if man didnt do it, then that leads to only one answer if what you say is true. the only answer is that there is no god, and if there is, he aint as nice as you make out. might even be classed as genocide in fact, and inwhich case, should be held account able for his actions.

  23. Steve says:

    “The very nature of God, you know, the creator of the universe, is to be able to control all aspects of His creation”.
    The key phrase here is “able to”. I’m able to do 100 push-ups, but much of the time, I choose not to. The key word here is “choose”.
    Again, your logic is a bit dubious here. One event does not logically lead to another.
    How does it logically follow that if man cannot prevent earthquakes that God causes them? “A” does not equal “B” as they are unlike properties.
    How does choosing not to do something make God into a genocidal maniac? Don’t people, every day, choose to do things, however small, that will hurt others? From your logic, that means that everyone is a “genocidal maniac” since none of us can be sure how our actions will affect people.
    Take a worker at a nuclear power plant. He sees a valve that is showing slight wear, but is still within the manufacturers specifications. He “chooses” not to change it. Later that day, it causes the reactor to SCRAM, releasing radiation into the neighboring community (remember the Russians?) Now should all people who work with materials that could hurt or kill lots of people be labeled potential genocidal maniacs? Of course not.
    I used that illustration to point out the freedom of choice.
    God has told us that these type of things will happen. Could He prevent them? Of course He could. Does He choose not to stop disasters? I think He does. Do I understand why? Not always.
    Maybe, just maybe it could be because the majority of people in an area have rejected Him and He feels no compulsion to save them.
    Ouch, now that idea will trample all over modern, entitlement, liberal group think. How dare God, who created us and who loves us even though, as a planet, we have rejected Him, do with His creation what He wants. I mean, who does He think He is anyway?
    OK, I’ve been having a little fun at your expense. Sorry. I really do like that questions you are asking. They are very intelligent.
    Let me go back to GotQuestions again, since they have said it better than I can say it. It is my opinion that the folks at GotQuestions have really tried hard to explain things through the Word of God. I have never found anything in their answers that goes against what the Bible says on the subject in question.
    So, here is what they says:

    Why does God allow earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, tsunamis, typhoons, mudslides, and other natural disasters? The late 2004 tsunami tragedy in Asia, Hurricane Katrina in 2005 in the southeastern United States, and the 2006 mudslides in the Philippines have many people questioning God’s goodness. It is distressing that natural disasters are often termed “acts of God” while no “credit” is given to God for years, decades, or even centuries of peaceful weather. God created the whole universe and the laws of nature (Genesis 1:1). Most natural disasters are a result of these laws at work. Hurricanes, typhoons, and tornados are the results of divergent weather patterns colliding. Earthquakes are the result of the earth’s plate structure shifting. A tsunami is caused by an underwater earthquake.

    The Bible proclaims that Jesus Christ holds all of nature together (Colossians 1:16-17). Could God prevent natural disasters? Absolutely! Does God sometimes influence the weather? Yes, see Deuteronomy 11:17 and James 5:17. Does God sometimes cause natural disasters as a judgment against sin? Yes, see Numbers 16:30-34. The book of Revelation describes many events which could definitely be described as natural disasters (Revelation chapters 6, 8, and 16). Is every natural disaster a punishment from God? Absolutely not.

    In much the same way that God allows evil people to commit evil acts, God allows the earth to demonstrate the consequences sin has had on Creation. Romans 8:19-21 tells us, “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.” The fall of humanity into sin had effects on everything, including the universe we inhabit. Everything in Creation is subject to “frustration” and “decay.” Sin is the ultimate cause of natural disasters just as it is the cause of death, disease, and suffering.

    Tom, keep the questions coming.
    By the way, I have a pretty busy day today, so if my answers quit coming as fast as they have been, don’t give up. I will respond to your comments just as fast as I can.

  24. Tom says:

    The answers ah very good, thank you Steve, although I find a lot of them beat around the bush a bit. I mean that as in, they can be seen as the way you see them, but also they can be seen in an entirely different way.

    For example, can god prevent earthquakes, you answer yes, but chooses not to. where as i see it, he isnt ‘preventing them’, he is causing the in the first place. this is of course if there actually is a god. now if what you are saying is true, and that he created everything and knows everything, then this also must be true. He created the earth and he created the earth’s crusts so that they cause earthquakes. Now, i see there being no real need to God to create earthquakes and earth’s movement in the first place, but hey ho, he has… Now when creating the moving planet, he knew that in him doing so, that people would die and be caused anguish, but made them anyway.

    In your round about answer that you gave, it was suggested that he did it to punish non belivers and the wicked, that is your view, and that is for you to believe, but for me, IF there is a god, I see it this way…

    Your loving God, who cares for ALL of his creatures did go forth and create a world that we should live on, and be happy, but in doing so, created a world that would harm us and give us misery and anguish. Now, the nasty people are ok, they have made themselves rich, and have buggered of to somewhere safe, for example washington in the white house 😉 and the people that are left to take the force of the natual events are the poor and and the innocent.

    I am going to use the tsunmai as my inspiration in this debate…. God made the earthquake, and meant for it to happen, and meant for the outcome. The people affected by the wave were innocent fisherman, but may not have been believers, and why werent they believers? because they are so poor, and insignificant, that no one has told them about christianity etc. They lead the lives, untouch by ‘your religion’… God never went to them, gave them his son etc, infact, you could say he ignored them, and left them to do what they like, and create their own religions etc. Now its not their fault that they didn’t follow God, how can they be blamed for not believing in something they have not been told about?

    See when i’m coming from? If God was pissed that people where turning their back on him, maybe he should send a plague of locusts to Las Vegas, or kill all the first born son’s in Jeresalum like he used to, then let the messiah have a stab at cracking asia, and at least give them a sodding chance of going to heaven.

    another question for you or Beth, which is related to all i said, say you have Bob. He’s born is 10AD in say, England, where god hasnt sent Jesus. Bob’s a good bloke, never set fire to his rival village’s huts, nor stole a pig/chicken. Bob knows nout of religion, nor of the ten commandments. Bob got sick 🙁 Bob died. where is Bob? Bob didnt believe in god, nor repented of his sins, because Bob was never told to.

  25. Beth says:

    Good question, Tom.

    All people are accountable to God whether they have “heard about Him” or not. The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23). Apart from God’s grace, God would give us over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. This He does for those who reject Him (Romans 1:24-32).

    In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” This verse teaches an important principle: everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

    The problem is, “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:11). People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own heart, and instead decide to worship a “god” of their own creation. It is foolish to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.

    We can all see the evidence of a Creator in nature. The earth, humans, animals, nature, everything on the earth is not here by accident. We werent made by accident and anyone who argues the opposite is just deceived or completely unwilling to see that there is a God.

    There may have been in the past and people in the future that are never told about Jesus, but the evidence of God the Creator is all around us. The truth is, Tom, you have heard the Gospel story, you know the truth of the Bible, yet you choose to deny that God is real. In your heart of hearts, can you really say there is no God? Can you say that you know for sure that Jesus didnt die for your sins? Of course you cant, because you dont know everything. None of us know everything. In reality, we probably dont know one percent of everything there is to know. BUT, here is what I do know. I know God is real, because He lives in me. His Holy Spirit convicted me of my sinfulness and saved me about 20 years ago when I was 14. I know because He sent his Holy Spirit to live in my heart. He speaks to me from His heart to mine. It is not something you can fully understand until you take that step of admitting your sin and asking forgiveness – turning your life over to be used by him and allowing Him to work in you and through you.

    What I am saying may sound strange to you, but to someone who is saved it makes all the sense in the world. What Steve and I have told you today is truth. Now, you have to do something with what you have heard. You have to admit that maybe there is something to it and maybe God is real – maybe heaven is real and hell is real – maybe you are on the path to a place you dont want to go OR you can continue on your own way and forget what we have told you. Whatever you choose, God still loves you and wants you to come to Him. God is loving and wants all people to accept Him- He cannot be in the presence of sin, so He has given you free will to choose Him or choose to be seperated from Him. God wants you to come to Him, but whether you believe or not does not change the fact that He is real. Jesus is coming soon.

  26. Tom says:

    I’m not saying there isnt a god. I have no idea, all I know is that I dont know. No one knows. like i said in one of the first posts, With all the religions in the world, someone has to be wrong, and yet all have as much ‘evidence’ as yourselves, and are 100% certain they are right. But the only evidence that is available is a book, that was written over 2000 years ago, and has been twisted and re-worded by so many people, know one knows what is right. you may believe it is right, but you don’t know 100% that it is.

    let me put this to you, i was having a talk with my mother, who has the same believes as you, and that was about aliens. she says there is no such thing as aliens, as good said that he only made one world. now, if say, bacteria was found on a meteroite, or when exploration found some; that in theory, would blow your whole religion apart, wouldnt it?

  27. Tom says:

    oh, and why did god create dinosaurs?

  28. Tom says:

    i don’t see bible quotes as ‘cast iron proof’ though, as anyone could have written them…

  29. Beth says:

    Um, maybe I missed something here. Bacteria found on a meteorite would blow Christianity apart? God made everything. Could He have made life on other planets? Yes, He could have – He can do anything – He is God. Do I think there is life on other planets? No.

    Here are some interesting facts that I found that might explain it better than I could.

    By the term “aliens” let’s assume beings capable of making moral choices, having intellect, emotion, and a will. First, a few scientific facts:

    + Men have sent spacecraft to every planet in our solar system, except Pluto. After observing these planets we have ruled out all but Mars and possibly a moon of Jupiter as being able to support life.

    + In 1976, the U.S. sent two landers to Mars. Each had instruments that could dig into the Martian sand and analyze it for any sign of “life.” They found absolutely nothing. If you dug from the most barren desert on earth, or dug through the most frozen dirt in Antarctica, and analyzed the soil these, it would be teaming with micro-organism life! In 1997, the U.S. sent “Pathfinder” to the surface of Mars. This rover took more samples and conducted many more experiments. It also found absolutely no sign of life. Since that time, several more missions to Mars have been launched. Expect the same results.

    + Astronomers are constantly finding new “planets” in distant solar systems. Some propose that the existence of so many “planets” proves that there must be life somewhere else in the universe. The fact is, none of these “planets” have ever been proved to be anything close to a life-supporting planet. The tremendous distance between earth and these planets makes it impossible to make any judgments regarding their life-sustaining possibility. Knowing that only Earth can support life in our solar system, evolutionists want very badly to find another planet in another solar system to argue that life must also have evolved out there somewhere. There may be other “planets,” out there somewhere, but we certainly know nothing intimately about them to verify if they could even remotely support “life.”

    So, what does the Bible say? The earth, and mankind, are unique in God’s creation. Genesis 1 teaches that God created the earth before He even created the sun, the moon, or the stars. Acts 17:24, 26 states that “God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth,… has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings.”

    After creation, mankind was without sin and everything in the world was “very good” (Genesis 1:31). When the first man sinned (Genesis 3) it caused the fall of mankind, which resulted in problems of all sorts, sickness, and death. Even though animals have no personal sin before God (they are not moral beings) they nevertheless suffer and even die (Romans 8:19-22). Jesus Christ died to remove the punishment that we deserve for our sin. When He returns, He will undo many aspects of the curse that has existed since Adam, and ultimately He will remove all aspects of the curse (Revelation 21-22). Note that Romans 8:19-22 states that all of creation eagerly waits for this time! It’s important to also note that Christ came to earth to die, that He came to earth to die for mankind, and that He died only once (Hebrews 7:27; 9:26-28; 10:10).

    Putting these truths together concisely: God created the earth and mankind unique. All of creation suffered as a result of the fall of man. Christ came to earth to offer Himself once and only once to pay for our sins. Not only will believers be delivered, but all of creation will be delivered as well.

    Implications: If all of creation suffers, that means that any life apart from earth would also suffer. If, for the sake of argument, there exists moral beings on other planets, then they also suffer; and if not now, then someday they will surely suffer when everything will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:10). If they had never sinned, then God would be unjust to punish them; but if they had sinned, and Christ could die only once (which He did on earth) then they are left in their sin, which would also be against the character of God (2 Peter 3:9). This leaves us with an unsolvable paradox . . . unless, of course, there are no moral beings outside of earth.

    What about life forms on other planets that are non-moral and non-sentient? Could algae or even dogs and cats be present on an unknown planet? Presumably so, and it would not do any real harm to any biblical text. But it would certainly prove problematic when trying answer questions like, “Since all of creation suffers, what purpose would God have in creating suffering non-moral and non-sentient creatures on distant planets?

    The Bible gives us no reason to believe that there is life elsewhere in the universe. In fact, the Bible gives us several key reasons why there cannot be. Yes, there are many strange and unexplainable things that take place. There is no reason, though, to attribute these phenomena to aliens or UFOs. If there is a discernable cause to these supposed events, it is likely spiritual, and more specifically, demonic in origin.

    As for your dinosaur question – that is a long one to answer as well. Have you ever heard of Ken Hamm? He has the website http://www.answersingenesis.org 🙂 Look it up and you may find a better explanation than I could give you or would have time to go in to right now. But like Steve said, if you are really seeking the Truth – you keep those questions coming and we will try to answer them to the best of our knowledge according to what God says.

  30. Steve says:

    Tom,
    Great questions!!
    One thing you are still not acknowledging, because it would blow your whole argument, is that the Bible IS acceptable documentation and proof, even by today’s standards.
    You claim that it “was written over 2000 years ago (true), and has been twisted and re-worded by so many people (false), know one knows what is right (also false).”
    Tom, when one compares the earliest known manuscripts, there is actually very little differences. The differences come from local dialect and do not change the meaning of the writing. The Bible is an authoritative source on earth’s early history.
    What I think is causing you consternation is the fact that so many religions claim to be true. I can understand your confusion. In today’s world of relativism, having someone claim to know almost anything is almost laughable by the public. We claim to know God. Other denominations claim to know God. Who is right?
    It’s really easy to tell. Do they strictly adhere to what the Bible says?
    Right now two main stream Christian denominations are having upheaval because of a failure to follow what the Bible says. Oh they claim they are, but not really. They are the Lutherans and the Episcopal Church. Both of these denominations have accepted and made normal the sin of homosexuality. The Bible clearly teaches that we are to love the sinner (pretty much everyone) but despise the sin. These denominations have become confused as to what this mandate means. In taking the first part out of context, the second part is completely ignored. Specifically, they are willing to endorse homosexuality in order to grow membership. Again, the Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong. Period. It is our job as Christians to love the homosexuals, but in no way endorse or call good the sin of their lifestyle choice. We are to support them as they try to turn from sin.
    Now take a look at the Muslims. Most Muslims, by the way, have not read the Koran. They accept at face value what their religious leaders tell them. I have read the Koran, and I can tell you that it has so many blatant scientific and historical errors in it that by that fact alone, it can be declared false. Let alone the fact that it was written by a pedophile psychopath (I don’t mean this as an insult to Mohammad, but true as by the definition of those terms and based on the accounts of what he did from the Koran).
    There are just two examples of groups that are not following the Bible.
    Now Tom, are you honestly telling me that you are willing to believe in alien beings from outer space, of which there is no credible evidence of, but you are not willing to believe in God of which there is massive quantities of evidence? Now I know you are smarter than that.
    Exactly were in the Bible does it say that God can’t put bacteria on meteorites? Where does it say that life cannot exist in the stars? How would that blow my religion apart? How would that disprove God? If it’s in the Bible, please point it out to me because I missed it every time I’ve read through the Bible.
    You keep on asking for 100% proof that God exist. Yet I’d wager to say that you, like most people, make life changing decisions quite often with as little as 10 to 20% proof that you are doing the right thing. Why are you holding God to higher standards than yourself? Because He won’t flash into existence in a form that will empress you, even though his architecture surrounds you at every turn? Maybe it’s because you’re just not interested in finding God. Unless He plays on your terms, you’ve no use for Him. In one of your earlier comments you accused me of being “Myopic”, and yet your blinders are so in place that you can’t see the “forest for the trees”, or in other words, you can’t see God because you don’t want to.
    Tom, what if you’re right and I’m wrong. What have I lost? I live my life as the Bible prescribes, as Jesus wants. What have I given up that I can’t live without? I’ll tell you. NOTHING. I haven’t given up anything that I need to live a full and happy life.
    Now put the shoe on the other foot. What if I’m right and you’re wrong? What do you loose? Of course you now have permission, from yourself, to drink, have premarital or extra-marital sex, do drugs, deface your body and any number of things. You may even claim that you need to do these things to “have fun”, not like those stuffy Christians who never “have fun”. But then you die and discover that all that we’ve told you is correct. Now you stand in judgment by God, who will not allow sin in His presence. He gave you an out, just believe in Jesus Christ, but apparently that was even too much to ask of you. Just as you rejected God, now He rejects you. You are banished forever from His grace and comfort to the “lake of fire” forever. Forever means Forever. Period. No second chances, another concept most liberal people of the world can’t get their minds to go around.
    So there you have it Tom. Decision time. Accept God by accepting His son Jesus as who He is, or reject God and assure your place in everlasting torment and judgment. You may be young, but you are not physically immortal. You could die from one of many different reasons today. Don’t wait. Accept Jesus now. I so want to meet you in heaven one day. Don’t do something that you will regret for the rest of eternity.
    God Bless.

    PS
    OK, I’m confused. Why wouldn’t God create dinosaurs? Not sure where you were headed with that one.

  31. Tom says:

    sorr, just a quick reply, as must rush to work…. mention dinosaurs, because a lot of christians dont believe in evolution.

  32. Steve says:

    What does evolution have to do with dinosaurs?

  33. Tom says:

    because there are suggestions we evolved from certain dinosaurs, and not made from dust

  34. Steve says:

    “We” evolved from the dinosaurs? I thought the worshipers of the god of evolution and it’s prophet, darwin, believed we evolved from apes. Is it dinosaurs now? Geeez, I wish they would make up their minds which fairy tale they are going to believe.

  35. Tom says:

    and where did the apes evolve from? answer is, certain dinosaurs….

  36. Tom says:

    http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1253578,00.html

    did woody go to heaven?

  37. Steve says:

    They didn’t evolve. Say it with me now “There is no fossil evidence. There is no fossil evidence.”

    The answer to your question is “I don’t know” How is that important anyway? Isn’t it more important that God chose to heal a little one who was beyond the hope of anything our medical technology had to offer?
    I think so.

  38. Tom says:

    just wondering what happened to him for the half an hour…

  39. Steve says:

    It is a good question, don’t get me wrong, but I must admit, I don’t know. I am in awe though, of an awesome God for which nothing is impossible.

  40. Beth says:

    Hey Tom, we will probably never know what happened to little Woody for that 30 minutes he was clinically “dead”. He will probably never remember that experience because he is so young. God took care of him and it is a miracle that he lived. Dont you find that amazing?

    I have never heard your ape-dinosaur theory before, but I can tell you that we did not evolve from anything. God made man the dust of the earth and then made woman from man’s rib. You see, the Bible gives us clear accounts of creation – there is no guessing – God told us exactly how He created us.

    Evolutionists would have you believe the lie that we evolved from a slimy puddle, but does that really make sense? To think that all of the world and everything/everyone in it began as a slimy mass of goo is preposturous and just another way to try and deny the existence of a omnipotent God and Creator. The basic reason people try to explain creation in terms of evolution, the big bang, etc. is because if you believe in a Creator, you believe in God, if you believe in God, you believe the Bible, if you believe the Bible, you believe in sin and its consequences. If sin has consequence, then we are responsible for our actions here on earth – there is a heaven and hell and we will all go to one or the other. The bottom line is that people do not want to admit that there is a Creator God because they want to continue in their sinful lives.

    Anyone who believes in evolution or any of the other ridiculous creation ideas that man has imagined, is truly a person who is unrealistic and cannot see the literal forest for the trees.

  41. Tom says:

    to be honest, i find the evolution theroy i lot more convincing than I do just making a guy out of dust. where do neanderthals fit in to the great scheme of things? they were Human, but not homo-sapian, and there is no mention in the bible about them.

  42. Steve says:

    Tom,
    Have you ever looked at the data they (the archaeologist) had in order to come up with the skeletal pictures and “artist conception” of what these early “humans” looked like?
    Find a copy of the November 2006 National Geographic. In it, you will see just how much is “artist conception”and how much is “real”. The bones of “Lucy” (who is hailed by most to be the “missing link”) are only 25% complete. Pretty heavy on the “artist conception” if you ask me.
    Many of the other “humans” they have found, used even less. One of them I saw was built from a jaw bone.
    Now I know these scientist folks are good, but c’mom…building a complete “person” from a jaw bone? Is that really sound science? I don’t think so.
    Do you know what the common thread between these early “humans” is? All of them have underdeveloped brains. They are more ape like than human.
    One facet I think causes confusion is “evolution” versus “adaptation”.
    In order for a group to evolve, simply, it means that a species changes it form. The original form goes away over time, leaving the new form.
    My questions is: If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes? This is in direct violation with the theory of evolution.
    Where are all the intermediate evolutionary links? Why are the fossils not in existence to support evolution?
    Think about this:
    Over many years, the apes “migrate” to other climates. Over time, they “adapt” to those environments.
    Think about an ape living in a tropical environment verses one living in a forest environment. Where is the food?
    In a tropical environment, the food is found mostly in the trees. In a forest environment, it is found mostly on the ground.
    When the forest apes’ feet changed from a design more suited for climbing to a design more fit for running, did he evolve or did he adapt?
    He’s still in existence, more ape in characteristics than a man, so by definition, he can’t have evolved. He must have adapted.
    I have only two wisdom teeth. Two of my wisdom tooth buds never formed. I asked about this and was told that “our bodies know that our food is processed better now. We no longer need wisdom teeth.”
    Did I evolve? No, I’m still here, and I’m genetically the same as all the other humans walking around. Did I adapt? Yes, I did. My body caught on sooner than most that I don’t need wisdom teeth to chew my food.
    If we evolved from an apelike creature, why can’t scientist find the intermediate fossils? They would be newer then the ones they are finding, they would be shallower in the rock, more accessible. They should have been the first ones we found. Yet to date, nothing even remotely close to what we are has been found. Why? Because they don’t exist.

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