Doomsday for Islam: Commentator Rebutal

Commentator Eleanor said…
“We are under attack by the Islamic World because we support the Israeli occupation of Palestine and because we occupy Iraq and Afghanistan. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, mastermind of 9/11, said he attacked us because of our biased support of Israel.(See “The 9/11 Commission Report” p. 147) The recent paper by professors Mearsheimer and Walt exquisitely documents the power of the Israeli lobby in its control of the press, our politicians, and US foreign policy. Rather than continuing to incite terrorism, plus threatening all sorts of inhumane nuclear revenge on innocent people (as Israel has historically done, ie collective punishment) we would do better to address the legitimate grievances in the Muslim World and mend our ways. When one studies tapes by Osama bin Laden it is clear he is not motivated by an urge to convert us all to Islam: this is neocon propaganda. See:”

I felt it necessary to make a separate post on the comment Eleanor left me in regards to my post “Doomsday for Islam?” Ms. Eleanor seems to have missed a few facts and I wanted to take a moment to present them to her and anyone else who is still buying into this train of thought.

You said “When one studies tapes by Osama bin Laden it is clear he is not motivated by an urge to convert us all to Islam: this is neocon propaganda.”
In the letter bin Laden released in November of 2002, he clearly states that the people of the United States “are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind,” and “you are the nation who rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its constitution and laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire.” He goes on to list “conditions” that “If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for a fight with the Islamic Nation.”
These conditions, again, directly from his letter are:

  1. The American people must convert to Islam.
  2. Americans must “reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling and trading with interest.”

So to recap, in order for bin Laden, and if he speaks for them, the rest of the Islamic world, not to attack us further, all we have to do is give up our Constitution and replace it with one what follows Islamic law. In other words, all the homosexuals would have to be put to death. The bars would be shut down and no restaurants could serve alcohol. Sporting events could no longer serve beer. Casinos, the lottery and slot machines are gone. No couples living together before marriage. Male/Female segregation at schools and public events. No right to vote for females. All females would have to wear headscarves in public and walk ten steps behind men. No credit cards and loans to buy cars and houses. No retirement fund, because it is made primarily from investments. Second century values on life, standard of living and education.
Hummm…this is a pretty bleak picture. Is this really what you want? If it is, please let me know and I can suggest several countries you can relocate to in order to enjoy this way of life.

Let’s move on.
You said “We are under attack by the Islamic World because we support the Israeli occupation of Palestine and because we occupy Iraq and Afghanistan.”
Exactly when did Israel occupy Palestine? You’re probably going to say 1948. Well, actually, God gave that area of the world to Israel back in the 15th century BC. Since that time, many different empires and governments have laid claim to that area. Despite the efforts of many of these rulers, Jews (Israelites) have always been a significant presence in this area. Other populations would come and go, but “Israel” was always there.
The local inhabitants did not call themselves “Palestinians”. The concept of a “Palestinian” to describe the local residents had not even been invented by 1948; neither was there ever in history a “Palestinian Arab” nation. None of today’s Arabs have any ancestral relationship to the original Biblical Philistines who are now extinct. Even Arab historians have admitted Palestine never existed.

  • In 1937, the Arab leader Auni Bey Abdul Hadi told the Peel Commission: “There is no such country as Palestine. Palestine is a term the Zionists invented. Palestine is alien to us.”
  • In 1946, Princeton’s Arab professor of Middle East history, Philip Hitti, told the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry: “It’s common knowledge, there is no such thing as Palestine in history.”
  • In March 1977, Zahir Muhsein, an executive member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), said in an interview to the Dutch newspaper Trouw: “The ‘Palestinian people’ does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel.”
  • Mark Twain – Samuel Clemens, the famous author of “Huckleberry Finn” and “Tom Sawyer”, took a tour of the Holy Land in 1867. This is how he described that land: “A desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds. A silent, mournful expanse. We never saw a human being on the whole route. There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”
  • In 1874, Reverend Samuel Manning wrote: “But where were the inhabitants? This fertile plain, which might support an immense population, is almost a solitude…. Day by day we were to learn afresh the lesson now forced upon us, that the denunciations of ancient prophecy have been fulfilled to the very letter — “the land is left void and desolate and without inhabitants.”

And yet, despite their very own self profession of being an invented people, they sure are fast to call on the world to acknowledge their so called “occupation”. Apparently you’ve bought into this mantra as well.

You said “…because we occupy Iraq and Afghanistan.”
It seems you like to throw around the “occupy” word quite liberally.
According to the Hague Conventions of 1907, Laws and Customs of War on Land” (Hague IV); October 18, 1907: “Section III Military Authority over the territory of the hostile State, Article 42 states:

  • Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
  • The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.

In Article 43, it states:

  • The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country.

Are you familiar with the elections in Afghanistan back in September of 2005 and with the elections in Iraq back in December of 2005, in which the populations of both of these countries democratically elected their leaders?
According to The Hague Conventions of 1907, the United States armed forces and the forces of the coalition governments are in place at the request of the legitimate government of those countries. They are no different then military bases in Germany, Korea or Japan.

Eleanor, I’m sure you’re way to young (as am I) to remember World War 1 and World War 2. If you have studied these wars, you will see us assisting our allies (World War 1 and World War 2) in defeating tyrannical governments who were determined to expand their dominance or sphere’s of influence and responding to attacks directly on us (World War 2). In both cases you have sited (Iraq and Afghanistan) you have tried to spin this as though the United States is evil and awful for going to war against the former governments of these countries. I’d like to ask you to explain in what ways, these wars are different than World War 1 and World War 2.
In Afghanistan, we went to war after being attacked by an enemy force. We went to the country where they were based. We defeated them (a major goal of war) and assisted the government in rebuilding their country.
In Iraq, we went to war to remove a tyrannical government set on expanding their dominance and sphere of influence and as a bonus, removed a leader who had terrorized his own people, killing thousands of them. Their only crime was dissent, something you are allowed to do daily with no threat of death.

You went on to site the working paper that John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt made about the force of the Israeli lobby in America. I would like to point out, that this “study” was so filled with misinformation that Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, where Mearsheimer is a professor, removed it’s logo from the paper and added a disclaimer.

Eleanor, instead of “mending our ways”, why don’t we ask the rest of the world to be accountable to their people’s wills, via a democratically elected government and take responsibility for those in their midst who preach hate and destruction.

In regards to the article, Islam better wake up to the fact that they will be held accountable for what people who claim to represent them do. Instead of taking a “root them on from the sideline” attitude, they need to be reclaiming their so-called “hijacked” religion from these radicals. Don’t look for this to happen any time soon. They agree with the radicals, they just have to say otherwise when meeting with civilized people.

Mark my words:
If the Islamist terrorist succeed in detonating one or more nuclear devices in the United States, the retaliation against the Islamist who sat on their hands and let it happen, will be swift and more deadly than anything this world has ever seen. It is in their best interest to police themselves now, before this calamity can happen.

8 Responses to “Doomsday for Islam: Commentator Rebutal”

  1. beth says:

    My question is this: Why would anyone in their right mind (someone who isnt a part of the plan to capture the nut) want to study the tapes of Osama Bin Laden?
    Answer: No one in their right mind would.

  2. Good point, Beth.
    What gets me is bin Laden is the master-mind of al-Qaeda and has repeatedly threated the United States and the west. What part of that do people not understand?

  3. Eleanor says:

    Beth asked why anyone would want to study the tapes of Osama bin Laden, and the answer is to prevent another 9/11. Indeed The World Trade Center had been attacked before, in 1993, by the nephew of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, whom as I said before, was identified by “The 9/11 Commission Report” as the mastermind behind 9/11. Both KSM and his nephew said they attacked us because of the US support of the brutal Israeli occupation of Palestine. Indeed, in 1993 the US was warned that the WTC would be attacked again if we didn’t change our biased unjust foreign policy. Too bad no one bothered to warn the poor souls who worked at the WTC. In Oct 2004 Osama bin Laden said in a tape that he had decided to attack the WTC after watching the 1983 bombing of towers in Beirut (with our weapons and financed by us of course) which to him symbolized the injustice and inflexibility of the American/Israeli alliance towards his people in Palestine and Lebanon. He pointed out that he doesn’t attack Sweden, for instance. In other words we are attacked because of the injustice of our foriegn policy and not because of our religion. As pointed out in Harper’s Magazine December 2001, the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River has been called Palestine since the days of Herodotus. A map in this article shows the UN 1947 partition of this land into a roughly equal Jewish State and an Arab State. (Map also available in Avi Shlaim’s book “The Iron Wall.”)At that time Arabs (who had lived there for 1300 years) owned 93% of the land and understandably did not think this was just. Today, Israel illegally occupies the whole area plus a part of Lebanon and a part of Syria. Regardless of what the Old Testament says, I do not believe it is Christian to ethnically cleanse people from their land where they have lived for 1300 years, and 1.3 billion Muslims around the world agree, hence terrorism. Iraq was no threat to the US but Saddam supported the Palestinians and thus had to be eliminated. Now we’ve started a civil war which is just what Israel wanted. (They’re happy to see Muslims killing Muslims.) The fact that the Harvard logo was removed from the Mearsheimer and Walt paper just proves their point concerning the power of The Lobby.

  4. Eleanor,
    Have you really bought into the liberal hype so badly that you see a Jewish conspiracy under every rock? The “evil” Jews control everything. They’ve mastered mind control and have so much money that they’ve bought and paid for the entire United States, U.N, and E.U. governments. Those types of thoughts are not rational and insult my intelligence.
    I’m sorry to take a condescending tone with you, but on this blog, we deal with reality.
    So if you will come back with me to a planet I like to call “Earth”, we can address your points once again.

    You tried to make the point that the reason Osama attacked us was because of our involvement with Israel. What you completely fail to realize is that radical Islam doesn’t need an excuse to attack us. Sure, they site a reason, that being the so-called occupation of Arab lands by Israel, but if Israel didn’t exist, they would fabricate a different reason to destroy those who didn’t believe like they did. I can tell by your logic that you have never seriously studied Islam.
    You site Harper’s Magazine as a valid source of information on Middle Eastern history. Harper’s Magazine is a very liberal publication. It has been known as one for many years. I can’t believe that from the vast plethora of information available at your fingertips, you would site Harper’s Magazine as a valid source for Middle Eastern history. Then you go on to mention Avi Shlaim’s book “The Iron Wall”. Eleanor, Avi Shlaim is a REVISIONALIST historian. Revisionist “change” history. Wait a minute…”change history”? How does one change history? History either happened or it didn’t. You can’t change history.

    Here are some interesting facts you may not be aware of.

    When Israel captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem in the Six-Day War back in 1967, they didn’t capture these territories from Yasser Arafat and the PLO, or for that matter any “Palestinian” government. They captured them from Jordan’s King Hussein.
    So can you tell me why all these “Palestinians” suddenly discovered their national identity after Israel won the war? If they wanted a homeland so badly, why were they not opposing ownership of the land by Jordan?

    On constant demand of “Palestinians” is for the world to recognize their pre-1948 claim to the land. Some world leaders have proposed that the world should recognize them back to pre-1917, the year the British took control of the area from the then defeated Ottoman Empire. The Palestinians are vehemently opposed to this idea. You see, if they went back just another 31 years in their “historical” claim to the land, they would have to admit that “Palestinians” are just a hodgepodge of people originally from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq. Yasser Arafat, the so-called “father” of the Palestinian movement was born in 1929 in Cairo, Egypt. If he was native “Palestinian”, shouldn’t he have been born in that region of the world? Israel wasn’t formed until 1948. So there’s no way he could become “displaced” and a “refugee” until after 1948. So how does he lay claim to being a “Palestinian”?

    Let’s look at the territory of “Palestine”.
    The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel gone.
    The Romans renamed it Palestine, a name derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury.

    Palestine has never existed. That region was ruled alternately by Israel, Rome, Islamic tribes, Christian Crusaders, the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. British Foreign Minister Balfour pledged support for the reestablishment of a “Jewish national home in Palestine” in 1917. Remember that Palestine is a geographical reference to the land between the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River. The people who inhabited this land were nomads who moved about in the entire Trans-Jordanian, Syrian area. If “Palestinians” are going to claim Israel, then they also need to get the Western half of Jordan and the Southern portion of Syria. It’s odd that they never seem to demand that.

    There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.

    Here is the reason Osama bin Laden attacked the United States:
    A spokesman for Hamas is quoted as saying “We cannot stop until we have driven all Israelis into the sea.” Iran’s president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, said that Israel must be “wiped off the map”. Jewish Genocide is the goal of Islam and the Arab countries. The United States supports Israel’s right to exist. As long as we do that, we are the enemy to Islam.

    You believe that “mending our ways” or in other words, allowing Israel to be destroyed, will make the world a peaceful place to live. Typical liberal idea.

    The Koran, which all Muslims are to obey, says in In Sura 5:51:
    “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them. This freindship makes any Muslim a enemy of their own and deserving of the same fate as the unbeliever. This is because God does not guide an unjust people.”

    So what happens to the “unbeliever” in Islam? Check this out:
    Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”
    Sura 9:5 says “Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush.”
    In Sura 9.123, “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you.”
    And in Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57 it says “Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.”

    Eleanor, you are trying to use a Western mindset to figure out why we were attacked. You can’t use Western logic and morals to characterize this enemy. They don’t think like we do. In their minds, we are only “infidels” worthy of death if we resist them, worthy of virtual enslavement if we don’t. In either case, peaceful co-existence is not an option for them. They will come to convert us or kill us whether Israel exist or not, and whether we support Israel or not.
    Please try to understand this.

    In any case, thank you for the discourse and please know I am praying for you. God Bless!!

  5. Eleanor says:

    On October 30, 2001, three Episcopal Bishops held a protest in Boston in favor of Palestinian statehood. A reading list of books on the subject that they recommended included Robert Friedman’s Zealots for Zion; Edward Said’s The Question of Palestine; and Avi Shlaim’s The Iron Wall. Because of the Israeli Lobby’s domination of the media, most people think the way you do. It is very important to look at both sides, and it is better to be humble than arrogant. Jesus said, Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. He also said Blessed are the Peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. It is better for America to support the Saudi Peace Plan, agreed upon by everyone except the US and Israel, which calls for Israel to return to its 67 boundaries in return for peace and recognition by the Muslim World, than for us to be consumed by this cycle of violence in which we are contemplating a nuclear holocaust.

  6. Hi Eleanor. Glad to see you.

    OK, now correct me if I’m wrong, but these Episcopal Bishops you mention, would they, by any chance, be the same group that confirmed a homosexual bishop, against the teachings of the Bible and against the will of a majority of Episcopal congregations? If so, that kind of harms their credibility in my eyes. But moving on…

    I haven’t figured out yet if you’re a Christian or just a well-informed secularist. Aside from a few verses taken out of context from The Sermon on the Mount, in an attempt to shame me into backing down, you seem to be lacking in Biblical Truth. I don’t say this to be mean or condescending, but your views on Israel indicate an almost complete lack of understand of the Bible or maybe an intentional disregard of using the Bible, whole and complete, as it is meant to be used.

    I like the “” web site, because they do a good job of researching things. I don’t happen to have my Bible Atlas with me today, so I had to borrow some information from them.
    Here is what they have to say about the land that God gave to the Israelites almost 4,000 years ago:

    “In regards to the land that God has promised Israel, Genesis 15:18 declares, “To your descendants (Abraham’s) I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates.” God later confirms this promise to Abraham’s son Isaac, and Isaac’s son Jacob (whose name was later changed to Israel). When the Israelites were about to invade the promised land, God reiterated the land promise, as recorded in Joshua 1:4, “Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates — all the Hittite country — to the Great Sea on the west.”

    With Genesis 15:18 and Joshua 1:4 in mind, the land God gave to Israel included everything from the Nile river in Egypt to Lebanon (North to South) and everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates River (West to East). So, what land has God stated belongs to Israel? All of the land modern Israel currently possesses, plus all of the land of the Palestinians (the West Bank and Gaza), plus some of Egypt and Syria, plus all of Jordan, plus some of Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Israel currently possesses only a fraction of the land God has promised.”

    To Jews and most Christians, the land the so-called “Palestinians” claim never belonged to them. I’ve sited numerous examples in both of my previous responses to you.

    You keep encouraging me to look at both sides of the issue, yet you have not done so yourself. You are still operating under the (false) pretense that going back to the pre-1967 boarders will bring about a wonderful time of peace and tranquility for the Middle East. You choose to ignore the fact that Islam is completely dedicated to the liquidation of the Jew and nation of Israel. As I said before, you cannot approach this issue with a western mindset. Arabs do not think the same way we do.
    Let me quote you another verse from the Koran that might help you understand the Arab/Islamic mindset better:
    Koran 47:34 says “Therefore do not falter or sue for peace when you have gained the upper hand.”
    Mohammed is telling his people to not make peace with their neighbors or adversaries if they think they can defeat them. Read what I say here very carefully now…any peace attempt by the Arabs, the sworn enemies of Israel, is by their own religious teachings, a ruse, in order to buy time to “gain the upper hand”.

    Eleanor, I have studied both sides of this issue in depth. Now it’s your turn to do the same.
    God Bless!!

  7. Eleanor says:

    Yes I am a Christian, rooted in the New Testament and not in the eye-for-an-eye Old Testament as you appear to be. (Also, I am very opposed to homosexual behavior, which I believe is unhealthy, unnatural, immoral, abnormal, etc.) Jesus said that those who live by the sword die by the sword. This is the opposite of the Old Testament mentality which glorifies battle. It is the Old Testament vengeful mentality which is ruining our nation. It’s very like the Koran you quote. However, your main point that Islam is devoted to Israel’s destruction: why then did all Arab states accept the Saudi Peace Plan and Israel did not? This despite the fact that the original UN partition awarded equal amounts of land to each, and the Saudi Plan (67 borders) only gives the Arabs 22%, yet they accepted it. In other words the Arabs are willing to compromise for peace and the Jews are not. Who then is devoted to the other’s destruction? It is Israel who wants to destroy America by forcing us to wage war on Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc. We were also led behind them into Lebanon. During that Israeli invasion of Lebanon, Israeli soldiers stood by and watched their Nazi-like Christian henchmen massacre hundreds of helpless Palestinian women and children in refugee camps. (Read Robert Fisk “Pity The Nation.”)

  8. Ahhhh…now I understand why you are taking the position you have been taking.
    Let me preface by saying that I’m delighted that you are a sister in Christ and that your love of Jesus is most assuredly as great as mine.
    I fear we may have to just agree to disagree on this subject. Our differences are much greater then the question of if Israel should exist or not. We disagree on the whole foundation of Israel as God’s chosen people.

    I believe that the Bible is perfect as written. It is God’s inspired Word to His creation. Even if I can’t understand how God accomplished all the accounts detailed in the Bible, I still believe that every word of it is true.
    The Bible must be taken as a whole work. No one part can be ignored or taken over the whole. From what you are telling me, you choose to ignore all, or at least most of the Old Testament.

    Malachi 3:6
    “For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.”

    Hebrews 13:8
    “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.”

    Eleanor, if you believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one (the “Trinity”) then you understand that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same in every way over all of time.

    Follow me here for a moment.

    Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18
    “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
    For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”

    The Law (as laid down in Exodus and Leviticus) still stands, even today, but finds it’s fulfillment in Jesus our Lord. Jesus clearly says that He came not to remove the Law, but to fulfill it.
    The Covenants made between God and Israel still stand, even today. The land God gave to Israel stand, even today.

    That is taking the Bible as a whole. No part is left out. It’s not necessary to leave any part out. It all goes together perfectly. Old and New compliment each other. Old predicts the New and the New declares the Old true. God is unchanging. Jesus is unchanging.

    One more point and then I have to get on to other things.
    Jesus is a Jew. In order to live sinless, he would have needed to have lived His life according to the laws of the Old Testament. He accomplished this and on the cross, took all of the sins of the world on His shoulders. He died so that we can live. He fulfilled the words of the Prophets.

    Please consider taking the Bible as a whole, not just the parts that “feel good”. Please remember that Jesus is a Jew and that the covenants with Israel still stand. Israel is God’s chosen people. That will never change. Yes, they are a “stiff necked people” (Deuteronomy 31:27). They constantly went against the will of God, but they are still His chosen ones. Jesus came to save them and included us (gentiles). Thank you Jesus!!

    God Bless!

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